The following is a summary from HONDA discussion group on the quality of US made and Japan made Japanese cars. I've never seen this comparison anywhere else. Also talked about is where different models of HONDA are made in US. Worth reading. The first message is from my friend who replied to my original question. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SMTP%"tong@actel.com" 30-JUL-1996 13:49:30.76 In local newspaper from San Jose (where I am), there was a report a few months ago that the CEO of TOYOTA admitted in public that the TOYOTA made in the US are not as good as those made in Japan. His speech was made in an opening cerermony of TOYOTA assembling plant somewhere in the US. I don't know exactly about HONDA, but it is easy to figure out. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SMTP%"HONDA-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU" 2-AUG-1996 23:07:01.02 Subj: HONDA-L Digest - 1 Aug 1996 to 2 Aug 1996 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 11:28:57 -0400 From: Greg Burgess Subject: Re: US-made vs. Japan-made Whether or not you get a Japan/US based model depends on where you buy the car and what model the car is. For instance, a Toyota Land Cruiser is made in Japan, and it will show better quality than a 4runner made in USA. I know that almost all of the Accords sold in US are made in the US. I am not sure about the rest of honda models, but it is true that Japanese models have higher quality than US-built cars -G Burgess 96 'lude Si ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 11:28:12 -0400 From: Wong Derek Tak-Lai Subject: Re: US-made vs. Japan-made On the contrary of what has been said by numerous people, my family owns a Japan-made Honda Accord 90 (from Canada) and a US-made Civic 94 (US model). Guess what, the Accord had more problems. It could be due to the harsh weather in Montreal (but we did park it in the garage there) or something else... Here's what we think. The 90 Accord was in its first model year when we bought it. It's a Japanese model and there's no "rattling sound" or noises usually associated w/ American made ones... But it did have a few minor but annoying electrical problems. I suppose it could be bugs that Honda hasn't spotted and fixed yet.... On the other hand, the civic we have was in its 3rd model year when we made the purchase. It does _seem_ to have a lower initial quality (more noise and squeaking sound from the seats and the dash) but it's been a flawless machine in terms of mechanical parts. So I suppose Honda must have eliminated the small bugs by the model's 3rd year. So we conclude that next time we are not going to get a car that's in it's first model year, American-made or not... Derek :) * ________________________________________ * |Derek T. Wong '98 | |Biology major / Biophysics concentration| |E-mail: dwong@haverford.edu | |Snailmail: Haverford College | | Haverford, PA 19041-1392 | * ---------------------------------------- * ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 12:06:19 -0400 From: Kaz Mori Subject: Yong wrote: >P.S. Are Japan-made HONDA's still sold in US? If yes, when we buy from dealers >is the price different? Yes, Japan-made Hondas are still sold in the US. Yes, Price should be the same. Most of you know this, but just look at the first position of the VIN. It's either "J" or "1", and if "J" stands for Japan, "1" must stand for... Kaz Kazuma Mori a.k.a. "Kaz" 1992 PRELUDE S AT w/goodies http://www.slip.net/~kazz http://www.slip.net/~kazz/hp_intro.html ------------------------------ End of HONDA-L Digest - 1 Aug 1996 to 2 Aug 1996 ************************************************ From: SMTP%"HONDA-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU" 6-AUG-1996 23:07:25.85 Subj: HONDA-L Digest - 2 Aug 1996 to 6 Aug 1996 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 10:56:41 -0400 From: John Messerschmidt Subject: Re: US made vs. Japanese made. I've owned two US Accords and now have a 94 EX built in Japan. The 94 seems like it's tighter. But this might be unfair since 94 signaled major improvements over the earlier model Accords (91,92) that I owned. Someone wrote in saying that the president of Toyota Japan made a statement regarding their Japanese models being better than the Ky. built units. I read that quote, It was in USA Today. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 10:56:32 -0400 From: "Robin C. Morarre" Subject: US vs. Japan made Wong Derek Tak-Lai, Keep in mind that Japan made Hondas and all other foreign cars are shipped across the ocean. Sometimes the salty air penetrates the cars and causes all kinds of problems. That might account for the electrical problems. I'm surprised the auto makers still haven't come up with a great solution for that problem. Robin RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR Robin C. Morarre Lab Administrator Horticulture Student MCST/Landsat Computer Facility University of Maryland NASA/GSFC Code 925 College Park, Maryland Phone: (301) 286-9412 E-mail: robinm@ltpmail.gsfc.nasa.gov MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 10:56:28 -0400 From: "Robin C. Morarre" Subject: US vs. Japan made Yong Huang, Consumer Reports and other auto magazines printed this spring did note that Honda is slipping in it's reliability, etc. Could be because they are averaging Japan and US made Honda's together. Robin RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR Robin C. Morarre Lab Administrator Horticulture Student MCST/Landsat Computer Facility University of Maryland NASA/GSFC Code 925 College Park, Maryland Phone: (301) 286-9412 E-mail: robinm@ltpmail.gsfc.nasa.gov MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 10:54:41 -0400 From: "Philip A. Fedele" Subject: Japan / USA Models I have had a number of US built Honda's. 84' Accord LX, 88 LXi, 90 Accord EX (still) and also a 94 Civic EXa Coupe. All are from USA and all have been great except the 88 LXi. My 90 has 108,000 miles and has original everything. Just changed the front struts and brakes (for the FIRST TIME!!!). It is solid and smooth. Good for first model year production. There will be problems in any country made vehicle but in this day and age all companies have increased quality.... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 10:55:04 -0400 From: Kenneth Sax Subject: Where Hondas are made Yong has asked me to post the following information that I have previously sent to him. This is based on memory so if anyone has a correction, please let us know. As previously noted on the list, for Hondas sold in North America, where it is made depends on the model. The Accord coupe and wagon and the Acura CL are only made in Ohio. All other Acuras are made in Japan. Accord 4-doors are made mostly in Ohio, but I think on the West Coast they sell Japan-made ones. Civic 4-doors are all made in Ohio, but I seem to recall reading in the past few weeks that they were going to start importing some to meet high demand. Civic hatchbacks are made in Ontario, Canada, but I don't know whether they all are or whether they import some to the West Coast. The Passport is made only by Isuzu in Indiana. The Odyssey is made only in Japan (and also sold by Isuzu as the Oasis). The Prelude and del Sol are made only in Japan. The price does not differ based on country of origin. California-emissions cars may be slightly higher. BTW, as Kaz noted, you can easily tell the country of origin by looking at the first character of the VIN, the 17-character vehicle identification number that appears on the Monroney (window sticker) and also on the dashboard where it meets the windshield on the left side of the car. "1" - US, "2" - Canada, "J" - Japan. I frankly doubt if there is a huge difference between the Japan-made and US-made Hondas, but there may be a slight one, I don't know. Individual accounts can vary, either way, and I'm not aware of any studies of thousands of cars that would have statistically significant conclusions. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Honda made in any country. Ken Sax nsxtasy@mcs.com 4 Hondas in the garage, 3 made in Japan, 1 in Swepsonville North Carolina ------------------------------ End of HONDA-L Digest - 2 Aug 1996 to 6 Aug 1996 ************************************************ From: SMTP%"HONDA-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU" 12-AUG-1996 23:06:15.17 Subj: HONDA-L Digest - 6 Aug 1996 to 12 Aug 1996 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 22:39:46 -0400 From: Howard Robinson Subject: Re: US-made vs. Japanese-made I have been a long time reader of Consumer Reports (30+ years) and definitely remember them saying in reference to Honda Accords, that the US made car was just as well put together as the made in Japan models they had previously tested. It should be noted that they were referring to initial sample defects in assembly and early failures if any. In the long run, reliability could still be quite different, and CU doesn t test for this. Nor have they tried to distinguish any difference since their annual questioner doesn t ask their subscribers where their vehicles were made. I have two Japanese cars, an 89 Honda Accord and 94 Toyota Camry, both manufactured in Japan. I can t give you any statistical evidence to support my view that made in Japan is better but I can point to a few things. First, the made in Japan cars are full of made in Japan parts, and there are lots of them! In my experience and those of my friends, ND or Nippon Denso parts are very reliable. Both my Accord and Camry are full of them. Second, when buying a replacement belt for the Honda AC compressor, the parts guy needed to know which compressor my car had. I told him ND and he offered the unsolicited comment that the ND compressor has proven much more reliable than the other brand Honda used that year. Third, it seems evident to me that Honda and Toyota have their reasons for producing cars and parts for them in the US. Chief among them are: tariff and transportation considerations, import quotas, and public relations for those buy American folks. None of these reasons are driven by the desire to produce high quality cars. In fact, it makes me wonder how much quality Honda and Toyota might give up in order to achieve their goal of US production. Having said all that, I visited the Camry production plant in Georgetown Kentucky and found it reassuring. The factory was in effect one very large machine, using only the minimum of human effort. Most of the robots and other machines in evadence were made in Japan. If it wasn t for the fact that many, if not most, of the parts that go into US Camrys are made in other US factories, I wouldn t be so opposed to buying one. For me it comes down to this: Most US made cars are not as reliable as cars made in Japan. Therefore, I don t want a lot of US content in my Japanese car. I m not sure about Honda any more, but you can still buy a Japanese made Camry. Note: the VIN. number will start with the letter J. If your buying a new car, tell the dealers you are negotiating with you want one built in Japan. Their locator system has VIN. numbers in it. Or you can do what I did and have one equipped the way you want it located aboard ship while still in transit to the US. That way it will be delivered by truck to the dealer you are buying it from and have only 3 or 4 miles on it. Otherwise, your New car may have hundreds of miles on it because first it was used as demo and then it was driven from the dealer that happened to have it, to the dealer that located it for you. As to price, I also got the best deal from the dealer that located what I wanted aboard ship. I had to wait 4 weeks to take delivery and I suspect the dealer felt he needed to accept a lower price to compensate for the delay. Expect most dealers to try very hard to sell you a car off the lot or one they can get from a another dealer with in about a 150 mile radius. Lastly, in my experience, for many automobile salesmen, truth is optional. Good luck, Howard Robinson ------------------------------ End of HONDA-L Digest - 6 Aug 1996 to 12 Aug 1996 ************************************************* From: SMTP%"HONDA-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU" 17-AUG-1996 08:34:44.91 Subj: HONDA-L Digest - 12 Aug 1996 to 16 Aug 1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 13:23:43 -0400 From: "Thomas H. West" Subject: Re: US vs Japan made I remember reading somewhere that, initially, the quality of Hondas built in Japan was significantly higher than those built in the US, but that gap has been closing rather rapidly with each model year. On the other hand, Honda, Toyota, etc., have received criticism in the past few years for over-engineering their cars and charging correspondingly higher prices. As a result, these car makers have reduced the overall quality of their cars, and prices have not been quite as high. Thomas H. West thwest@interramp.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 13:22:51 -0400 From: Kenneth Sax Subject: Honda Reliability >Consumer Reports and other auto magazines printed this spring did >note that Honda is slipping in it's reliability, etc. I don't think so! They still rate virtually all Honda models "much better than average", their highest rating. Doesn't mean they will never have problems, but ON AVERAGE they will do as well as any brand. Only Toyota comes close to Honda in reliability, according to Consumer Reports. Can you supply a direct quote (including which issue and article) where they say Honda is slipping? Ken Sax nsxtasy@mcs.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 13:31:52 -0400 From: "David C. Hills" Subject: Re: US vs. Japan made >As previously noted on the list, for Hondas sold in North America, where it >is made depends on the model. The Accord coupe and wagon and the Acura CL Also a note from dealer PR. Honda is the number 1 exporter of cars made in the U.S. Most of the engines made for all Honda's, including motorcycles and cars imported from Japan and Canada come from the U.S. engine plant. So even a Japanese built Accord still has a U.S. engine in it. The Passport is actually made on a GM assymbly line with GM and Isuzu trucks in indiana. The manifold says Isuzu but all the electronics are GM. A truck sold by Honda bought from Isuzu, built by GM with French rear ends. So is it American made? Dave Hills (lifepage@ix.netcom.com) Some if not all words may be misspelled "http://www.renton-honda.com" "http://www.bellevue-nissan.com" ------------------------------ End of HONDA-L Digest - 12 Aug 1996 to 16 Aug 1996 ************************************************** From: SMTP%"HONDA-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU" 22-AUG-1996 09:27:02.81 Subj: HONDA-L Digest - 16 Aug 1996 to 22 Aug 1996 - Special issue ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 19:25:41 -0400 From: "David C. Hills" Subject: Re: U.S. built vs. Japan built >>Also a note from dealer PR. Honda is the number 1 exporter of cars made in >>the U.S. Most of the engines made for all Honda's, including motorcycles >>and cars imported from Japan and Canada come from the U.S. engine plant. >So >>even a Japanese built Accord still has a U.S. engine in it. > >Not true. Japanese-built Accords (and other Hondas and Acuras) have >Japanese-built engines in them. Honda exports cars from Ohio to Japan >(Accord coupe and station wagon) that have U.S.-built engines in them. But >Honda does not export engines from Ohio to Japan. Oh but it is true! I work for a Honda dealer, the key dealer for the northwest. Because I work there doesn't make it true but it is. >>The Passport is actually made on a GM assymbly line with GM and Isuzu >>trucks in indiana. The manifold says Isuzu but all the electronics are GM. >>A truck sold by Honda bought from Isuzu, built by GM with French rear >ends. > >Again, close, but no cigar. The Passport is made on an assembly line in >Lafayette, Indiana. This plant is a joint venture between Isuzu and >Subaru. The same plant manufactures the Isuzu Rodeo (the clone of the P >assport) and the Subaru Legacy. I don't know about specific parts; it's >quite possible that the electronics are GM (although most electronics on >most cars, including GM cars, are made in Japan). There is definitely a GM >connection, though, in that GM owns a minority interest in Isuzu (and also >Suzuki, which is not involved in Indiana). Subaru is owned by Fuji Heavy >Industries. I'm sorry but it is a GM assembly line and it IS a GM truck. Take it apart and you'll see. I have. >Ken Sax >4 Hondas in the garage, 3 made in Japan and 1 in Swepsonville NC 130 Honda's a day worked on, seven days a week. Dave Hills (lifepage@ix.netcom.com) Some if not all words may be misspelled "http://www.renton-honda.com" "http://www.bellevue-nissan.com" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 19:20:18 -0400 From: Kenneth Sax Subject: Re: US vs. Japan made >Also a note from dealer PR. Honda is the number 1 exporter of cars made in >the U.S. Most of the engines made for all Honda's, including motorcycles >and cars imported from Japan and Canada come from the U.S. engine plant. So >even a Japanese built Accord still has a U.S. engine in it. Not true. Japanese-built Accords (and other Hondas and Acuras) have Japanese-built engines in them. Honda exports cars from Ohio to Japan (Accord coupe and station wagon) that have U.S.-built engines in them. But Honda does not export engines from Ohio to Japan. >The Passport is actually made on a GM assymbly line with GM and Isuzu >trucks in indiana. The manifold says Isuzu but all the electronics are GM. >A truck sold by Honda bought from Isuzu, built by GM with French rear ends. Again, close, but no cigar. The Passport is made on an assembly line in Lafayette, Indiana. This plant is a joint venture between Isuzu and Subaru. The same plant manufactures the Isuzu Rodeo (the clone of the P assport) and the Subaru Legacy. I don't know about specific parts; it's quite possible that the electronics are GM (although most electronics on most cars, including GM cars, are made in Japan). There is definitely a GM connection, though, in that GM owns a minority interest in Isuzu (and also Suzuki, which is not involved in Indiana). Subaru is owned by Fuji Heavy Industries. Ken Sax 4 Hondas in the garage, 3 made in Japan and 1 in Swepsonville NC ------------------------------ End of HONDA-L Digest - 16 Aug 1996 to 22 Aug 1996 - Special issue ****************************************************************** From: SMTP%"HONDA-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU" 22-AUG-1996 23:59:33.93 Subj: HONDA-L Digest - 22 Aug 1996 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 12:19:17 -0400 From: Kenneth Sax Subject: Who Makes the Passport? From prior posts: >>>The Passport is actually made on a GM assymbly line with GM and Isuzu >>>trucks in indiana. The manifold says Isuzu but all the electronics are >>Industries. >>[snip] > >I'm sorry but it is a GM assembly line and it IS a GM truck. Take it apart >and you'll see. I have. In order to settle this once and for all, I spoke today with Curtis Smith. Mr. Smith is the Manager of Community Relations with Subaru-Isuzu of America (SIA). SIA is the owner and operator of the plant in Lafayette, Indiana where the Honda Passport is built. The other models built at this plant are the Isuzu Rodeo (Mr. Smith says they prefer the term "sister model" to "clone"), the Subaru Legacy, and the Subaru Outback (a version of the Legacy Wagon). SIA is owned 51 percent by Fuji Heavy Industries (Subaru) and 49 percent by Isuzu Motor Co. GM owns 37 percent of Isuzu. There are some parts of the plant that are common areas that are owned by SIA, and others that are owned separately by Subaru and Isuzu. For example, receiving bays are in the common area; the assembly lines diverge so that the Honda Passport and the Isuzu Rodeo have final assembly on the Isuzu assembly line, and the Subaru Legacy and Subaru Outback have final assembly on the Subaru assembly line. Parts for these vehicles are obtained by a number of suppliers. For example, Mr. Smith noted that the wiring harnesses are manufactured in Mexico by Packard Electric, a company based in Warren, Ohio. He also indicated that there may be some GM parts on the models built there; he was not sure. He also noted that when it comes to manufacturer, the Isuzu Rodeo (sister model of the Honda Passport) should not be confused with the Isuzu Hombre. The Isuzu Hombre is a light pick-up truck which is built by GM in their plant in Shreveport, Louisiana. GM has also agreed to build the replacement for the Hombre in Isuzu's model line, which will be based on GM's S-10 pickup. It will have sheet metal designed by Isuzu but 90 percent of the vehicle will be identical to the GM version. Bottom Line: The Honda Passport and Isuzu Rodeo are sport-utility vehicles (trucks) built by Isuzu on an Isuzu assembly line in Indiana. The Isuzu Hombre, on the other hand, is a truck built by GM on a GM assembly line in Louisiana. Ken Sax nsxtasy@mcs.com ------------------------------ End of HONDA-L Digest - 22 Aug 1996 *********************************** From: SMTP%"HONDA-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU" 23-AUG-1996 23:06:17.54 Subj: HONDA-L Digest - 22 Aug 1996 to 23 Aug 1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 15:24:43 -0400 From: Kenneth Sax Subject: Where is the engine in my Honda made? From previous posts: >>>Also a note from dealer PR. Honda is the number 1 exporter of cars made >>>in the U.S. Most of the engines made for all Honda's, including >>>motorcycles and cars imported from Japan and Canada come from >>>the U.S. engine plant. So even a Japanese built Accord still has >>>a U.S. engine in it. >> >>Not true. Japanese-built Accords (and other Hondas and Acuras) have >>Japanese-built engines in them. Honda exports cars from Ohio to Japan >>(Accord coupe and station wagon) that have U.S.-built engines in them. But >>Honda does not export engines from Ohio to Japan. > >Oh but it is true! I work for a Honda dealer, the key dealer for the >northwest. Because I work there doesn't make it true but it is. I've been busy researching these questions so that we can get the answer straight from the source. In this case, the source I posed the question to was Roger Lambert, in the public relations department at Honda of America Manufacturing, which runs the automobile assembly plant at Marysville, Ohio, and the engine manufacturing facility at nearby Anna, Ohio. As Mr. Lambert notes, Honda is, indeed, the number 1 exporter of cars made in the U.S. He provided a list of 53 countries to which Honda exports U.S.-made cars (and that doesn't even include Canada!) Mr. Lambert also noted that the Anna engine plant supplies engines to the Honda automobile assembly plants in Marysville, Ohio (Accord, CL), East Liberty, Ohio (Civic), Alliston, Ontario, Canada (Civic), Mexico (Accord), and, beginning next year, Brazil (Civic). All Honda and Acura automobiles built in Japan use engines manufactured in Japan, not in the U.S. Most, but not all, of the cars built in the U.S. and Canada use engines built in Ohio; the rest use engines imported from Japan. As noted in the Honda Motor Co. 1996 Annual Report, "Almost all of Honda's North American-made vehicles will use Ohio-made engines by 1998." Honda has an ambitious program of increasing its automobile production all over the world in the next few years, including a second production line to be built at Alliston (Canada) for the new, V6-powered minivan. U.S. engine production will also be increased to 900,000 units per year. The 1996 Annual Report also contains the following statistics: Cars built in Japan, fiscal year 1996: 955,700 Cars built in Canada, fiscal year 1996: 110,496 Cars built in U.S., fiscal year 1996: 564,474 Cars built in U.K., fiscal year 1996: 96,300 Cars built in Asia and Oceania, fiscal year 1996: 113,926 The materials sent to me by Mr. Lambert noted the production of the following items in 1995 at their Anna engine plant: Accord Engines: 352,648 Civic Engines: 239,127 Automatic Transmissions: 400,539 Driveshafts: 393,944 Civic/Accord Suspension Sets: 1,212,828 Civic/Accord Brakes: 2,636,620 Ken Sax nsxtasy@mcs.com 4 Hondas in the garage, 2 made in Suzuka, 1 in Tochigi, and 1 in Swepsonville, North Carolina ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 15:28:38 -0400 From: Rick Brandwein Subject: Re: Passport factory RE: "Bottom Line: The Honda Passport and Isuzu Rodeo are sport-utility vehicles (trucks) built by Isuzu on an Isuzu assembly line in Indiana. The Isuzu Hombre, on the other hand, is a truck built by GM on a GM assembly line in Louisiana." Phew. Rick B. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 15:28:29 -0400 From: Robert Toledano Subject: Passport made by Isuzu/GM/Subaru GM... ...That explains the Passport isn't as reliable as other Hondas!\ What a shame, its a nice vehicle! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 16:09:07 -0400 From: Kenneth Sax Subject: Re: Passport made by Isuzu/Subaru but NOT GM >GM... ...That explains the Passport isn't as reliable as other Hondas!\ > >What a shame, its a nice vehicle! Maybe you didn't read the information I posted. The Honda Passport is made by Isuzu. It is NOT made by GM. It is made with parts from a lot of different companies, including GM and Honda as well as others. Ken Sax nsxtasy@mcs.com ------------------------------ End of HONDA-L Digest - 22 Aug 1996 to 23 Aug 1996 **************************************************